WLP240 Beyond WFH: Remote Work and Socioeconomic Change

Episode 240 of the 21st Century Work Life podcast with host Pilar Orti and guests John O’Duinn and Tracy Keogh. Headshots of Pilar Orti, John O’Duinn, and Tracy Keogh.

In today’s episode Pilar brings you two interviews which will help you think ‘beyond wfh’ - to appreciate the potential for social transformation that remote work brings. Today’s conversation has been dominated by the global rush to home working during lockdown, and it’s easy to lose sight of the bigger picture, and all the benefits of remote work for the community and the broader economy. (You can learn more about this in episode 212 too, where we first explored remote work and social change).


5:00 John O’Duinn, Civic Action

John O’Duinn

John O’Duinn

John O’Duinn is a Senior Strategist at Civic Actions, and author of Distributed Teams: The Art and Practice of Working Together While Physically Apart.

He lives in Vermont, which has experienced much boom and bust in recent decades, and has a recent history of younger professional migration from small towns. Tax incentives are not well aligned to create long-term careers in new places, nor to make it easy for businesses to find the skilled workforce they need away from coastal urban hubs - making it unattractive for big businesses to locate to Vermont’s towns, in a cycle of spiralling economic decline.

But there’s high-speed internet and people who want to work, along with towns needing new residents to revitalise them - and therefore the new vision was to flip the traditional model of incentivising businesses and talent to relocate physically to the region, instead encouraging people to move to Vermont specifically to work remotely: Work From Home – in Vermont!

John has provided remote testimony to the economic development panel working on this initiative, helping to clarify the benefits of this new approach, which avoids gentrification and displacement, and the payment of huge tax perks to big corporations to induce them to open branches which end up completely distorting the local labour market and economy.

Instead, Vermont decided to pay incentives to individuals working remotely - to encourage them to relocate, bringing their diverse and healthy careers along with them, bringing stability and quality lifestyles to the towns, with an influx of professional residents and families.

The idea was so successful, that it propagated largely by word of mouth. With great outdoor activities and a healthy environment, excellent education, affordable homes, on offer - the right people self-selected and moved to Vermont, to enjoy a lifestyle they loved and chose for themselves. And the cities provided funding for co-working spaces and social infrastructure, encouraging local interaction, learning, and collaboration (all of this pre-lockdown, obviously, but it will still be there.)  

Other similar models are emerging in different states, including in Oklahoma - have a look at the Tulsa Remote website for a great example, this one philanthropically backed, offering similar incentives.

While Pilar’s conversation with John took place before recent global events, it’s easy to see the potential for expanding on these models and trends now that the business world has learned just how many jobs can be done remotely, and so many people now have a new appreciation of the importance of their home environment.


37.58 Tracy Keogh, Grow Remote

Tracy Keogh

Tracy Keogh

Tracy Keogh tells us all about Grow Remote, which is a community project that makes remote work local, visible, and accessible. 

Co-working spaces have enjoyed huge growth in Ireland thanks to government support, but filling them was more of a challenge - because the businesses offering such opportunities were not traditional local ones, creating a gap of knowledge and access, which the Grow Remote community has helped many people to cross. 

Revitalising high streets with coworking centres, and thriving teams of happy remote workers, helps keep living environments vibrant and evolving through shifting economic times, and can help stop small towns suffering from urban migration and depopulation. Remote work opens up so much potential, for people to create great lifestyles away from big cities, and enables the culture of great remote-first employers to seep into local areas - like the provision of facilities like gyms, or even really great coffee!

The sad truth as Tracy observed is that the more a town needs jobs creating in it, the less attractive it is to big business to open branches and satellite offices there - exactly as John and his colleagues in Vermont had identified. Instead, remote work offers real choice for employers to hire globally, and for individuals to live the life they want, wherever that is. It’s not about urban vs rural, etc - but individual preference.

So Grow Remote is working with government to promote and explain remote work, and help with training, infrastructure (like fast broadband), and community development.  They encourage grassroots initiatives, instigated by local groups to lobby for what they want, and they focus on empowering community voices to drive this forward. And they provide community and education and a platform, for people working remotely all over Ireland and beyond.

Local chapters are emerging too, to support these local activists as remote work advocates - because the potential for remote work needs to be injected right into the local conversations, from the school car pool to the pub, and put on local roadshows and events. Different chapters operate in their own ways, but the central organisation provides support and information freely for all.

Since Pilar recorded this interview with Tracy, Grow Remote has grown! They’re now working across 4 countries, with more than 60 chapters. So do check out what they’re up to including lots of online events, which you can view at leisure.


We hope you enjoyed these windows into the broader impact of remote work, and we’ll be back soon with more news, information, practice, and ideas

And don’t forget to check out all the different ways that Virtual Not Distant can help you, with every aspect of remote team leadership and practice.


If you like the podcast, you'll love our monthly round-up of inspirational content and ideas:

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